Free Will?
Last comment by Slappy 2 months, 3 weeks ago.

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I am placing this post under the "Churches" section because there is no "Religion/Philosophy" section here. I am a Deist. I have some very strong beliefs about God and the nature of existience. One thing that keeps troubling me though, is this: Is free will an illusion?

The ideas of an omnipotent and omniscient God seem to directly conflict with the Judeo/Christian belief in free will. In other words, if God knows everything before it happens, do we really have any choice in anything that we do?

I look forward to your thoughts.


Latest Activity: May 19, 2008 at 9:09 AM



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Slappy commented on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 at 04:26 AM

I think it is the devil that controls most people by their own free will who let him and that is obvious to God. God gives everyone the ability to make that choice and knows what is in your heart. I wonder, what is in your heart by your comments?

Diavolo commented on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 at 05:15 AM

No need to wonder, just ask. By the way, your argument ignores the idea of omniscience (the knowledge of everything). If God knows, and has always known all things to come, hasn't every detail of our lives been scripted from Adam's original sin to what kind of toothpaste you will buy tomorrow?

MsGenuine commented on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 at 15:45 PM

I started a philosophy club called the "Socrates Club" last year and found very little interest amongst the local population in discussing the type of profound thinking that you are trying to address here in your blog. I can assure you that your question has been considered by the greatest thinkers of all of humanity's history. One of my favorite quotes is from the philosopher, Schopenhauer: "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills!" When I use that quotation personally I always change the exclamatory punctuation with a question mark as even Schopenhauer could not prove without a doubt the conclusion of his own inquiry! The Cosmos is infinitely mysterious and I myself, a mathematician and philosopher by formal education, who has given quite some serious study to these types of questions merely conclude with more questions than answers. Good luck with your personal pursuit and life's journey! Ms. Genuine

Slappy commented on Thursday, May 22, 2008 at 04:44 AM

I think your philosophy fell off the shelf with the toothpaste. If you believe in God's word, you should question your own self will, not his. God has given you the answers for everlasting life...

Diavolo commented on Thursday, May 22, 2008 at 05:28 AM

Slappy, don't you think that God wants us to use the intellect that he gave us to explore the big questions? I don't think He wants mindless sheep. I think God wants us to choose Him, (if free will is real) not to blindly accept the dogma of our parents.

MsGenuine commented on Thursday, May 22, 2008 at 12:56 PM

Diavolo, have you just arrived off the boat from China? With inquiries such as these you are bound to hear Christian rhetoric. This is the "Bible Belt" after all, what did you expect? The Bible preaches obedience not free thinking! If our Creator gave us the ability to have free will and to think for ourselves, in the minds of most Christians that is just a "test!" A test to see if you choose to sin or seek salvation. One line of thought thinkers! For out of the box thinkers such as yourself, these answers come through many hours and some times years of meditation to include studying many cultures and religious thought to arrive at your own personal conclusions!

Diavolo commented on Thursday, May 22, 2008 at 14:25 PM

I am aware of the potential closed-mindedness of some. I wa just trying in earnest to explain the question to Slappy. So on to you MsGenuine, what is your view? Do we choose, or do we follow a cosmic script? Were Judas Escariot and Adolph Hitler evil, or did they only do what they were meant to?

MsGenuine commented on Friday, May 23, 2008 at 01:44 AM

I admit that I am a believer of fate to a certain degree in that we are here for a divine purpose. But humanity's free will can change the course of our destiny. I certainly believe that our Creator is the source of all divine energy expressed within the entire cosmos and we, as human beings are all interconnected to this source and to each other. So in response to your inquiry, I do not believe that any one individual is in control of his/her fate... it is a convergance of multiple variables in play. Fate is in a constant web of change ... again as we are all connected to the divine energy source. Ultimately I believe in reincarnation, so if we do not accomplish our destiny or evolve our souls to a higher spiritual enlightenment we get to do the whole "earth birth" again until we evolve spiritually to reach the next level of existence in a higher energy dimension of reality. For each person that is a unique journey and no one could speak authoritatively on this subject as it is purely speculative and subjective! Spirtitual enlightenment is a life long journey and involves many twists and turns but I feel confident that I have made enough progress hopefully to exist in a more peaceful dimension of reality upon my passing! Otherwise, I will be reincarnated to learn the lessons I failed this go around! Since I will never know if I passed this test, I am constantly analyzing my experiences to see if I need to learn something of great importance or impart that wisdom to a seeker of knowledge. Who knows really? But I do not believe in coincidences of any kind. All things happen for a reason! It is our job to find the reason, which is constantly perplexing! Nancy

Diavolo commented on Friday, May 23, 2008 at 06:46 AM

Ms Nancy, your remarks are interesting; However the question remains (or I am too dense to understand your response). For just as one cannot be "a little bit pregnant", one is either in charge of their destiny or not. Or are you saying that we all have a destined goal, and we arrive at that goal on a path of our own choosing? If so, I would read that as an argument for free will, rather than an omniscient creator.

MsGenuine commented on Friday, May 23, 2008 at 16:47 PM

I am so sorry that I have not been "black and white" enough in my response. The question that you ponder is not that simple! My response is revealing of that fact! You assume that your question could be answered with a "yes" or "no" response, therein lies your Achilles heel! It is too complex a philosophical inquiry for such simplicity! My response addresses your pointed question quite pointedly with revealing clues to the answer that you have to actually formulate for yourself! When you say that we must be in charge of our destiny or not, I say it is neither, but a state of constant flux as we are all interconnected with the Divine Energy. Destiny is not a straight line to a goal, it is more like a spider web! Best I can do without actually being the Creator from which you seek these answers! By the way one can be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time, it is the exact moment in time that identifies the answer! Simply... one could be pregnant at this very moment and then a millisecond later in time one could be not pregnant as the death of the unborn fetus has not yet been revealed to our conscience brain! Our destiny too could change as abruptly to accomplish our life purpose to which we will not understand until it comes into focus at the appropriate time. Wisdom is revealed to us in minute bits and portions so as not to confuse us while we journey, nonetheless we all eventually arrive at our destinations! Hope that helps!

Diavolo commented on Friday, May 23, 2008 at 21:51 PM

Ms Genuine, with all due respect, you should run for public office. Your tap dance around the answer would be the envy of Gregory Heinz. The question reveals a paradox, that's what makes for interesting discussion. Your pregnancy argument is invalid because it considers two events that are sequential, not simultaneous. The only paradox that I'm aware of that has two simultaneous, but absolutely different results is that of Schrödinger's cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6d...). Even this scenario can only last until there is an outside observer. Of course, if God is omniscient, there is always an observer, and the paradox can never exist.

Slappy commented on Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 01:03 AM

I believe God has the ability to control everything, but he has given us the ability to make our own choices. Live and learn the difference, making our own decisions along the way. Maybe he knows all by the choices we have already made and the circumstances of what we have lived. My question is what would make you think your creator would not know your destiny? Is it because of his ability to forgive? If you ever feel Christ in your heart you will find your answer. I am not preaching to you because I do not practice religion, but in my life many years ago I had the fortune of Christ in my heart and from that feeling you and God share the same will.

Deo commented on Saturday, May 24, 2008 at 14:29 PM

Of course we have choices. But its the choices we make that make us accountable. Every decision/choice we make is brought about by a cause; its brought about by something that has happened us or something which we think about, etc. GOD brings about those situations and allows us to make those decisions "voluntarily". That determines our accountability. Of course, He knows which decision we'll make, but He gives us that choice. We will then be held accountable. Free will - no such thing. Free will means not influenced by outside factors. We make choices based on our environment; our personal factors. If we had free will we could do anything we wanted to, like instantly move a 1000 miles away? Only God the Father has free will.
I don't believe we have a choice in our salvation. God does the choosing; just like the 12, Paul, Moses, Jacob, etc.
All Christians are called, but not many are chosen; chosen for a purpose which God has planned. That is, to reign with Him when He returns. They are the called, chosen/elect and the faithful or overcomers. Rev 17:14 All Christians will not reign with Christ when He returns; only those who are chosen. They've chosen to die to the flesh that Christ might live in them. God has made them willing. (Psa 110:3 Your people shall be willing in the day of Your power.) They do the will of the Father, not their own. They are obedient to the spirit, not their own desires. They want what God wants in their life. In essence, they are filled with and walk in the spirit.
Concerning Judas, he was made for that purpose. He had no choice in the matter because Satan entered him and caused him to betray Christ. Lk22; Jo13. However, He had a bent towards sinning against Christ which led to him to be embroiled in Christ's death. He fulfilled prophecy which foresaw him doing his deeds. It took Satan entering Judas to betray Christ. But as in the Old Testament, when one's heart is bent toward sin, God sometimes allows them to continue on so that they may revel in it, there by making their sin all the more sinful and thereby, all the more accountable. Making the wrong choice and continuing in it will lead to big problems.
Remember, we're the clay; He's the potter. He can do with His as He sees fit. In the end, though, He'll save all of His creation for He came to seek and to save that which is lost. Will He fail? Of course not!

MsGenuine commented on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 at 11:38 AM

I absolutely disagree with the comments previously posted. We have free will to make choices period! Our Creator granted that to us uniquely as was proven with the Biblical story Adam and Eve. Eve may have been an influence upon Adam's decision, but Adam made that decision on his own! To say that we do not have free will is ludicrous even if we are influenced by environmetal factors. We still make choices that reflect our conscience which happens to be able to override those influences. And I have ran for public office, not to my liking anymore as most canidates do not have free will to speak freely anymore!!

MsGenuine commented on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 at 12:23 PM

As for a Post Script, I am a practicing Wiccan for nearly thirty years but raised a Catholic. I have studied many religions and this discussion has no absolute right and wrong answers. I truly believe that our Creator is all knowing but not all controlling. In the fact that both religions make use of the act of praying shows that some prayers are answered and some are not is conflictual as well. But it is not to state that the reason they were answered or were not answered were in the realms of a controlling Creator, maybe our destinies are accorded by our free will and the free will of others connected to the divine. The energy that flows between all interconnected projections of the divine changes from moment to moment. According to my religious belief we have the ability to create or manifest our destinies within the realm of that divine essence but whether our results are as we anticipated relys on the wishes of all other creatures including humans contained in the divine essence. It is all interconnected as I stated before and not that our destinies are merely an isolated act (be it that it may if this were not true, would simply clear this whole discussion up nice and tidy for some believers.) That would make us mere puppets used for the enjoyment of the Creator! What purpose does that serve? That is Roman theology if you choose to believe in those Gods! Even Christians believe that God acts in the vessels that he has created to effect His Will, which proves my point that we are all interconnected in some way to the Divine Essence. I believe our existence to be more complex than that of a mere puppet! Christian thought in and of itself is too limited for my beliefs systems. In fact I believe we could not possibly comprehend the mysterious nature of the Divine Essence some would call God and some would call Allah and some would call Goddess or even more generally, The Creator, with our limited abilities, but we can make choices and we can pray for what doors to be opened in the universe. If the door exist in that moment in time then we have the ability to walk through it... best explains my thoughts on this subject. No more dancing!

Slappy commented on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 at 01:46 AM

NEED PROZAC? Those thoughts are enough to make you crazy! crazy! With all the double double talk, I'm not sure your sure, that your sure your sure. Are you sure that your sure?

MsGenuine commented on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 at 07:11 AM

Whoever is absolutely sure about anything relating to this topic is NOT THINKING! As I said earlier in my comments for those who took the time to digest but not comprehend my thoughts on this subject would know that obviously there are no definate answers to the inquiry posted in this blog! For your information, Prozac is a medication to treat persons for depression. Also, for your information the accepted treatment for the medical condition generally known as "insanity" (the politically correct term for "crazy" which by the way with its use stigmatizes those afflicted with this debilating mental illness) is treated with super powerful tranquilizers such as Haldol and Seraquel which puts your brain to sleep. Since it is obvious that I am not asleep, I must not be crazy!! I hope that clears it up for you!

Slappy commented on Thursday, May 29, 2008 at 13:59 PM

Sorry about the upset...I'm done.


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