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The Pope Says Whaaaaat?
Mr.
Last comment by up2sumptin 1 year ago.

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We have talked about a lot of things on these pages with many varying viewpoints. One in particular is homosexuality. First let me say that I was baptized by full immersion January 15 1995 at First United Methodist Church in Hinesville. I view myself as a Christian, that at times falls short of what God wants me to be in life. That being said, over the years my view on human sexuality has been altered from what I initially believed. I believe our sexual nature is genetically predisposed and is not a choice that we as humans make. A change from a previously held view as my friend, MLC, can attest to. For the record, I was born heterosexual and am attracted to the opposite sex, women.

I have seen wide ranging views on this subject of homosexuality on these pages ranging from tolerance to intolerance. This morning I woke up and turned on my pc after breakfast and saw the following story. I found it quite interesting and just what my fellow bloggers might care to say regarding this subject. I hope the link comes up.

JimmyMack

http://abcnews.go.com/International/pope-shifts-churchs-tone-gay-people/story?id=19800626


Latest Activity: Jul 29, 2013 at 1:47 PM


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sebekm commented on Monday, Jul 29, 2013 at 16:25 PM

...and the answer is:

The Pope's comments are not inconsistent with Catholic Church doctrine on homosexuality. Nothing regarding to that has changed. (That doctrine is: homosexuality = sin.)

What he did say in effect was that he didn't want to "judge the sinner." The media has characterized this Pope as a "Pope of the People" based upon his humble upbringing and his proclivity for public transportation. But with this statement, he has shown he is just as much the politician as his predecessors - perhaps more so.

PoliticsNation commented on Monday, Jul 29, 2013 at 19:26 PM

I heard a great sermon Sunday and it really touched my heart. The pastor spoke about the woman that was brought before Jesus after she was caught in the act of adultery. Jesus never denied that what she did was wrong...the pastor put it like this...you can stone her...but before you do..You are without sin cast the stones...when he looked up the accusers were gone and she was standing alone. I don't condone homosexuality but I'm not here to mistreat people or judge them...The word also says no sin is greater than the other..so that little white lie, the hate someone holds in their heart, pride, not helping the poor, judging someone because of the color of their skin (respect of persons) and etc; they carry the same weight has homosexuality...I don't condone it nor do will I judge..

JimmyMack commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 07:30 AM

Exactly PN. This is what the Pope said: "If someone is gay and searches for the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge?" asked the Pope. "We shouldn't marginalize people for this. They MUST be integrated into society."

The Pope's tone indicated an emphasis on a church that is more inclusive and merciful rather than critical and disciplinary.

up2sumptin commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 09:30 AM

Of course PN you do know that Jesus told her that her sins were forgiven and to go and sin no more.

PoliticsNation commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Go and sin no more....that's what he said... He's saying that to the liar, cheater, deceiver, back biter judge mental, unforgiven person, and the list goes on.....I don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone in. The man above has the final say. A judgmental person with no love in their heart will find themselves on the same road ....I don't condone it but I know I need to sweep around my own front door before I sweep around someone else...

sebekm commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:41 AM

"Go and sin no more" DOES NOT exclude the homosexual.

EyesonHinesville commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:18 PM

The Catholic Church does not say that being homosexual is a sin. All humans are tempted by different temptations. In other words...what turns you on may not turn me on. The teaching is that the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. Sex outside of marriage (adultery) is a sin. The Catholic Church believes that marriage is only recognized by God when it is between a man and a woman. Therefore,homosexual sex is a sin. The Catholic Church does not refuse homosexuals from serving as priests. You CAN be gay and not ACT on it. Being tempted with homosexuality is no different than the multitudes of other temptations we deal with such as greed, adultery, violence..etc.

Good conversation Jimmy...thanks for starting this blog.

JimmyMack commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 14:53 PM

Thanks Eyes. I myself, do know that Jesus as a Jew, wanted to Widen the circle by bringing forth the Good News of salvation to gentiles and others,and not Restrict or tighten the circle thru exclusion.

timeontarget commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 15:54 PM

Go and sin no more.

Forgiveness is not avaliable for pre-mediated sin.

You may sin and ask forgiveness , if done so sincerely you will certainly be forgiven instantly.

Then you are commanded to go and sin no more.

If you in fact repeat the sinful act then you must suffer the consequence.

I don't want to pass judgement and I know that I in fact could be wrong.

If I'm wrong so be it.

Just my position.

timeontarget commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 15:58 PM

pre-meditated

planned in advance

can't spell

up2sumptin commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 16:44 PM

What Eyes said. Let me be clear, I am not bashing any homosexual. The Bible speaks plainly that ALL sexual misconduct is a sin and equal in the eyes of God. I do find it interesting that we often wink at conduct that is clearly not in accordance with the teachings of the Bible but get our panties in a wad over homosexuality.

timeontarget commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 17:03 PM

Two wrongs do not make a single right.

PoliticsNation commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 17:53 PM

Seb...I apologize for the confusion. I wasn't excluding homosexuality.

JimmyMack commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 18:13 PM

IF God is Love, is God present in homosexual monogamous Love?

sebekm commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 18:41 PM

"The Catholic Church does not say that being homosexual is a sin."

"Being homosexual" = homosexual ACTS. THAT is a sin. Homosexual "desires" - which are NOT acted on - "are not in themselves sinful." It's not really a fine line. It's just like Sheriff Buford T. Justice used to say:

"You can think about it....but JUST...DON'T....DO IT."

For a clarification, see: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homose...

And speaking of clarification - thanks, PolNat for yours. Too often "go and sin no more" is misinterpreted as some kind of farewell (as in "Ciao, baby") or a throwaway phrase. It is LITERAL CLERICAL INSTRUCTION when given by a priest. When this instruction is given to a homosexual (as in the sacrament of Confession), it literally means: "STOP IT" - if you don't want to be a "sinner."

Up2 is absolutely correct. There is too much "winking" going on as it pertains to some "misconduct" as opposed to others. A SIN IS A SIN. Period. People will always try to minimize or deflect when it is their own particular "sin." See the link above for a discussion of most of the arguments made to minimize/deflect in the case of homosexuality.

sebekm commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 18:49 PM

"IF God is Love, is God present in homosexual monogamous Love?"

Some say "yes," and some say "no." Here's a pretty good discussion (which I happen to agree with):

http://www.victorjadamson.com/article...

EyesonHinesville commented on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2013 at 19:18 PM

Sebekm..what exactly are you quoting me for? We said the same thing.

sebekm commented on Wednesday, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:49 PM

Not exactly. You said:

"The Catholic Church does not say that being homosexual is a sin."

That is an erroneous statement. The Catholic Church DOES say that being homosexual is a sin. Having homosexual thoughts and not acting on them does not make you a homosexual. You have to ACT - i.e., do the deeds - in order to "qualify" and actualy BE a homosexual.

See the link I provided above for a "nihil obstat" clarification.

EyesonHinesville commented on Wednesday, Jul 31, 2013 at 14:25 PM

Maybe I should have said being gay? When I said "being homosexual", I did not mean acting on it. I meant having same sex desires. Sorry for any confusion.

timeontarget commented on Wednesday, Jul 31, 2013 at 15:42 PM

What, if anything, is the difference between gay and homosexual???

up2sumptin commented on Wednesday, Jul 31, 2013 at 16:13 PM

Outside of this forum, there is no difference. I think they are trying to distinguish between a practicing homosexual and a celibate one.

sebekm commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 11:54 AM

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the terms "gay" and "homosexual" are essentially synonymous. To the Church, someone who is "gay" = someone who is "homosexual." As far as the church is concerned, this implicitly means that homosexual ACTS are being committed. Acts go beyond "desires" or "thoughts," according to the Catholic Church, i.e., "desires" or "thoughts" DO NOT EQUAL "sin." It is acting on those desires or thoughts that trigger "sin."

So - to the Church - one is NOT "gay" or "homosexual" because they have desires or thoughts. In order to "qualify" as gay/homosexual, one has to actually do the deeds.

This definition is not necesary (or totally) consistent with how the LGBT community and society at large might view it. See these links for a discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexu...

sebekm commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 11:56 AM

...This definition is not necessarily (or totally), that is...

EyesonHinesville commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Sebekm- are you a Catholic? Just curious.

JimmyMack commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 14:50 PM

Hello Sebe: I read the link you posted on Victor J. Adamson. It seems that he describes himself as a "reformed homosexual" and that Homosexuality is a lifestyle of CHOICE, and that one can change from the homosexual lifestyle thru searching for Jesus. Now I ain't got no quarrel with Jesus on this, cause all things are possible that come unto Him. I DO believe that is possible.

However, the problem I have with Victor J. Adamson which is a pseudonym for the real author, is his coming right out of the gate saying Homosexuality is a CHOICE to which I have a fundamental disagreement.

To use Adamson's reasoning and taking it further: one is not born to be a pedophile, transgendered or bi-sexual. He views these conditions as life CHOICES!!! Which is some cases may be true. But not entirely is it true.

Adamson's view is the same one held by
Michelle Bachman and her husband who opened a Clinic to "treat" homosexuals and "convert" or cure them of their sexual disposition. Now ya gotta know Sebe what I think about the Bachman's claim to be able to 'cure' homosexuality. That is a load of rubbish.

We, all fall short of the mark set by Jesus. ALL of us do. WE ALL SIN. Many of us do so repeatedly.

From what I was able to find about Adamson, he is a writer, producer and filmmaker and grew up a guilt ridden homosexual who found 'release from the homosexual lifestyle' through prayer and a desire to change. Fine. Now THAT was his choice.

I, on the other hand believe that mankind is born genetically predisposed to their sexual orientation. A view diametrically opposed to Adamson.

up2sumptin commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 15:30 PM

I was with you JM until you mentioned pedophiles. Then you lost me.

I would like to address Seb's position that thoughts and desires aren't sinful. I point to Matt 5:27-28, " “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." So thoughts and desires are sinful. Not the fleeing thoughts and temptations that we have during the day but the thoughts we dwell on. I might see a $20 that someone dropped and be momentarily temped to pocket it. I immediately dismiss it and return the cash. That isn't a sin. But what if I am an alcoholic and as one I want a drink. The want of the drink is not a sin but if I were to dwell on it, then it would be sinful. This is because the more you dwell on a thought, the more likely you are to act on it.

sebekm commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 16:11 PM

"Sebekm- are you a Catholic? Just curious."

Hi EoH: Yes. I'm a "Classic Catholic" as far as education and experience go (Catholic infant asylum/grammar school/high school/university with four years as as an "altar boy' mixed in; married a Catholic; raised two children as Catholics). As far as being a "practicing Catholic" - uh, no. Somewhere along the way either the Church left me behind or I left it behind.

Hi Jimmy: I understand your comments, but as far as Adamson goes - I don't care what his background or motivation are. What I was agreeing with is his analysis of "gay monogamy" and his assertions on the the biblical basis for the his conclusions. That's what I was pointing to when I referenced the link. I was directly responding to your question: "is God present in homosexual monogamous Love?" Regardless of Adamson's life's experiences, philosophy on being homosexual, etc., - which I care nothing about - I believe his analysis and conclusions in answer to your direct question are SPOT ON. That's what I was agreeing with.

Hi up2: I understand your points, but I point you to the nihil obstat-with-imprimatur- approved catholic.com link above, which states:

"Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out."

So thoughts and desires are not "sinful" unless there is a continuation to some "act."

JimmyMack commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 16:28 PM

HI UP2. You sure about the pedophiles? Everything I have ever seen in the data show Pedophilia to be an arrested sexual development in such people. Wait a minute...I think I just made your argument!!! They can be born hetero or Homosexual but somewhere during their development something alters their sexual proclivities. Is that the way you see it?

I seem to recall some studies involving convicted Pedophiles being evaluated regarding sexual arousal and being shown pictures of adults and children in various poses of being clothed or unclothed. When the imprisoned pedophile was monitored as being aroused by pictures of children and not adults they were given some sort of electro shock.(discomfort)

When tested months later, the same group were tested showing no change in their sexual arousal concerning children.

Maybe they did not get the proper amount of electric jolt to help reshape more appropriate sexual response or lack thereof.

up2sumptin commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 16:31 PM

"Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out."

Lol, Seb. Isn't that what I said? You just said it better than I could.

JimmyMack commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 16:44 PM

Sebe: Are you saying that you are ok with homosexual marriage as long as they do not express their love thru sex with their monogamous partner?

What about kissing and heavy petting sans oral and anal sex?

sebekm commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 18:09 PM

up2: I didn't say it - that's what the site said. YOU said: "...thoughts and desires ARE sinful." I'm saying and catholic.com is saying thoughts and desires - by themselves withoiut continuation to acts - ARE NOT SINFUL. That's the difference between what you said and what I said.

Jimmy: I am not ok with homosexual "marriage." I am okay with whatever they want to do and whatever they want to call their unions - civilly, religiously, or whatever way - as long as they DON'T call it "marriage." Reiterating - my position is:

*I don't care what they do, just don't shove it in my face and don't try to promote it in any way (media, personally, etc.) as a "normal" or a "desirable" lifestyle to the masses - especially to young people.

*Don't call it marriage. Marriage is a religious sacrament and the foundation for societal order and propagation of the species. I understand that they want it to be called "marriage" for equivalent "status" and to shove a stick in the eye of everyone who believes that marriage is a union designed for one man and one woman. But IMHO that concession should NEVER be made because it denotes normalcy - in nature and every other way. Homosexuality - by percentage alone - is NOT normal and never should be.

up2sumptin commented on Thursday, Aug 01, 2013 at 18:57 PM

Whatever Seb. :)

sebekm commented on Friday, Aug 02, 2013 at 11:21 AM

\m/

JimmyMack commented on Friday, Aug 02, 2013 at 16:49 PM

So, it is, I guess the burden of those that are homosexual to carry the cross of abstention from homosexual acts thru out their lives. Such as Gay Catholic Priests in order to enter The Kingdom of God.(?)

Am I correct about this?

EyesonHinesville commented on Friday, Aug 02, 2013 at 18:38 PM

As mere humans, we are unable to say who may enter the Kingdom of God. I know my Savior to be merciful.

JimmyMack commented on Friday, Aug 02, 2013 at 19:53 PM

I do also, Eyes. And as I recall from the Scriptures is that the ONLY sin that cannot be forgiven is to SIN against the Holy Spirit.

God's grace is many times undeserved.

up2sumptin commented on Friday, Aug 02, 2013 at 22:11 PM

God's Grace is always undeserved. He gives it freely anyway.


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