Who Won?
Last comment by timeontarget 1 year, 9 months ago.

Take Me To Post Comment Form

The headline that the "cliff" has been averted has by no means provided me with any sort of comfort that all is well. Keep in mind that it was stated that there still needs to be other provisions voted on to finalize the deal. When you read all the blurbs of how it will affect you; I have yet to see who really came out on top here. From what I can acertain, the programs that provide the government subsidy seem to be the clear "winners". I can't see how we consider this a win when everybody for the most part is going to see an increase in taxes. However the equity of the tax hike is still a point of contention. When you strip away all of the rhetoric, those who have been bearing the burdon of the tax load have had it increased. This solves nothing! I am frustrated folks, I hate that I can be upset about it all I want; it is not going to change the outcome. It is a bitter pill that all of us seem to have been prescribed by a president and a congress that do not seem to be swayed by what the the people affected by this nonsense think or desire. It is clear that the current administration lacks the morale courage to do whats best for the country. Their biggest success? as TOT stated. Kick the can once agian. Seems it might be time to recycle that can...

Latest Activity: Jan 02, 2013 at 12:22 PM

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golfnut31316 commented on Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 12:37 PM

I like this Idea.

Warren Buffett, in a recent interview with CNBC, offers one of the best quotes about the debt ceiling:

"I could end the deficit in 5 minutes," he told CNBC. "You just
pass a law that says that anytime there is a deficit of more
than 3% of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible
for re-election.

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds)
took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple!
The people demanded it. That was in 1971 - before computers, e-mail,
cell phones, etc.

Of the 27 amendments to the Constitution, seven (7) took one (1) year
or less to become the law of the land - all because of public pressure.

Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to
a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask
each of those to do likewise.

In three days, most people in The United States of America will
have the message. This is one idea that really should be passed

Congressional Reform Act of 2012

1. No Tenure / No Pension.

A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no
pay when they're out of office.

2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social

All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the
Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into
the Social Security system, and Congress participates with the
American people. It may not be used for any other purpose.

3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all
Americans do.

4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise.
Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.

5. Congress loses their current health care system and
participates in the same health care system as the American people.

6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the
American people.

7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void
effective 12/1/12. The American people did not make this
contract with Congressmen/women.

sebekm commented on Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 12:45 PM

As with most cases of "compromise," everybody will try to say they "won" something. But other than political points, IMHO we all lost because our elected representatives have once again kicked the can down the road. There are various analyses out there this morning, but I like this one the best. See:


For me, the operative portions are:

"This (fiscal-cliff) deal is projected to yield $620 billion in revenue over a decade — increasing projected federal revenue by about 1.7 percent over that time. And that’s about it. The Democrats have made the Bush tax rates permanent for 98 percent of the public, which Republicans couldn’t even do when they controlled both houses of Congress and the presidency."

(In the following passage, "they" refers to Democrats):

"They did not get to pick and throw away the low-hanging fruit that could be used in future rate-reducing tax reform (in fact, they retained some “extenders” of tax credits and deductions that could better enable such reform, and the new and more honest CBO baseline that results from this deal eases the way for it), they did not get to claim that they have reformed Medicare without touching its structure, and they now have to move immediately into a debt ceiling fight. Right after a tax-only deal, and just as people start to notice higher payroll taxes, they’re not in a great position to demand more rate increases in that fight, or others to come."


"In a press conference in 2011....Obama said the following about his fellow Democrats:

"(T)he vast majority of Democrats on Capitol Hill would prefer not to have to do anything on entitlements; would prefer, frankly, not to have to do anything on some of these debt and deficit problems. And I’m sympathetic to their concerns, because they’re looking after folks who are already hurting and already vulnerable, and there are a lot of families out there and seniors who are dependant on some of these programs. And what I’ve tried to explain to them is, number one, if you look at the numbers, then Medicare in particular will run out of money and we will not be able to sustain that program no matter how much taxes go up. I mean, it’s not an option for us to just sit by and do nothing."

Right. The fiscal trajectory of our welfare state is not sustainable, no matter how much taxes go up. That is the truth at the heart of our budget crisis. The fiscal-cliff debate ignored that truth from start to finish, and so has achieved nothing worthwhile for anyone."

So apparently what we all "gained" was that the term "fiscal-cliff" won't be used as much in the future. But our problems STILL remain, as does the failure of our elected representatives to deal with them head-on.

sebekm commented on Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 12:48 PM

Golfy: Buffett is spot on. No pay for Congress unless the budget is balanced was my other suggestion. Nobody "wins" until we get our fiscal house in order.

HMJC commented on Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 14:08 PM

The general concensous is that most households will have the combined taxes equate to $25 a week. So the bottom line is I can look forward to being short at least a Ben Franklin every month.

gacpl commented on Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 20:41 PM

the people lost on all sides, but heres some of the winners in the bill

$430 million for Hollywood through "special expensing rules" to encourage TV and film production in the United States. Producers can expense up to $15 million of costs for their projects.

$331 million for railroads by allowing short-line and regional operators to claim a tax credit up to 50 percent of the cost to maintain tracks that they own or lease.

$222 million for Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands through returned excise taxes collected by the federal government on rum produced in the islands and imported to the mainland.

$70 million for NASCAR by extending a "7-year cost recovery period for certain motorsports racing track facilities."

$59 million for algae growers through tax credits to encourage production of "cellulosic biofuel" at up to $1.01 per gallon.

$4 million for electric motorcycle makers by expanding an existing green-energy tax credit for buyers of plug-in vehicles to include electric motorbikes.

sebekm commented on Wednesday, Jan 02, 2013 at 22:00 PM

The Dems have always supported big taxes and big spending - especially on "pork." When the payroll and health care tax increases hit, we'll see who the people think "won" round 1 of the fiscal cliff scrum.

Iknowyou commented on Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 08:25 AM

The 26th amendment (granting the right to vote for 18 year-olds)
took only 3 months & 8 days to be ratified! Why? Simple!
The people demanded it. That was in 1971 - before computers, e-mail,
cell phones, etc.

Just for the record computers and cell phones have been around way before 1971.
The first cell phone came out in the 1950's.

HMJC commented on Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 09:40 AM

Last and greatest spin on who "won"

Winner: The Washington, D.C. culture of tax breaks for special interests

timeontarget commented on Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 13:15 PM

Maybe one of the major parties has been forced to uphold the Constitution.

Then again the other major party President has trampled all over it with executive orders.

I don't understand it.

sebekm commented on Thursday, Jan 03, 2013 at 13:20 PM

I do....unfortunately it's just politics as usual in the 21st Century. They "uphold the Constitution" when it's convenient or when it supports what they want (or the special interests want).

The People are just sheep.....

Graeme245 commented on Saturday, Jan 05, 2013 at 10:45 AM

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the "fact" that families that earn $450,000 (gross adjusted income) are middle class...

sebekm commented on Saturday, Jan 05, 2013 at 13:57 PM

Yes - it does seem that they make their defintions to suit the situation. I guess you can have a many "class strata" as you want, when you are making up your definitions. I remember a chart I saw whenever that had nine class strata - along the lines of: Upper Upper, Middle Upper, Lower Upper, Upper Middle, Middle Middle, Lower Middle, Upper Lower, Middle Lower, and Lower Lower (a.k.a "the lowest of the low"). Then there was a range of annual income associated with each stratum.

I guess when you have as many billionaires and millionaires that we supposedly have in our society today, a "measly millionaire" (as in one million dollars in annual income) might fit into the "middle class" somewhere.

timeontarget commented on Sunday, Jan 06, 2013 at 07:12 AM

I don't think a millionaire earns a million dollars in annual income.

A millionaire is one who can produce a financial statement of his net worth and the net worth is a million dollars or more.

There's probably more of them than you might think.

Our congress is loaded with millionaires and very few of them were millionaires before having been elected to congress.

A person should never attain millionaire status while working in service to the government or serving in elected office.

golfnut31316 commented on Sunday, Jan 06, 2013 at 18:57 PM

Back to the question, who won? NOT the American people, or better yet the American tax payer. Those of us who have an income and pay income taxes.

So all of the tax revenue that will be raised by raising taxes on the richer will be wiped away by the taxed breaks given to Hollywood, Nascar, ect.

In the emergency bill for Sandy relief, we are paying for fish stuff in Alaska, new cars for the FBI.

The government will run out of money in March.
Spending has NOT be cut.
This is absurd.

Sheran commented on Sunday, Jan 06, 2013 at 19:41 PM

Who won? The entitlement people won, "Big Time". Not only do they get free food and cheap housing on top of the "Obama phone" now they get free "Obama Care"... That's who won!

JimmyMack commented on Monday, Jan 07, 2013 at 13:51 PM

The ones who can count won, She-run-run-run. Those like you and TOT have been left back at the dock or in your own defective life boat hollering and whining for Ship America to turn around and come pick you up.

Guess what? We ain't turning around for you.

sebekm commented on Monday, Jan 07, 2013 at 18:11 PM

...at least not until 2016...

Funkentelecky commented on Monday, Jan 07, 2013 at 21:25 PM

JimmyMack, check out your phone bills. If you have a cell phone look at the Federal Universal Service Charge for (Obama phone) see it here:


The 2.3% medical excise tax is upon us too, even though it started being collected from the wrong agencies right here at Cabela’s a sporting goods store, see:


17 million more Americans are on food stamps too; this is not good for the economy and the country, why aren’t you going after the source of this mess living in the Whitehouse? We need to be able to discuss the truth about the situation wholeheartedly.

And Chief, it can start happening in 2014 especially if the economy goes into another recession with BHO brandishing his bully pulpit culminating in the Republicans taking charge of both chambers of congress and therefore relegating BHO as a Lame Duck for his last two years like GWB!

timeontarget commented on Tuesday, Jan 08, 2013 at 07:21 AM

I saw where the democratic party is going to introduce legislation to abolish term limits for the office of President.

May God have mercy on this country.

JimmyMack commented on Tuesday, Jan 08, 2013 at 09:52 AM

Yeah, Tot. Conservative bible thumper that you are, I am sure that you are shaking in your boots for another 4 time election run as experienced by FDR.

We will win again in 2016.

HMJC commented on Wednesday, Jan 09, 2013 at 12:08 PM

I digress to my original post, Who won? and just what did we win....

JimmyMack commented on Wednesday, Jan 09, 2013 at 14:25 PM

Democracy won HMJC. With all its warts and scars, Democracy won via a peaceful process. NO tanks, no guns, no WMDs.

Whether you like the outcome or not the freedom to elect our leaders via the ballot box won.

HMJC commented on Thursday, Jan 10, 2013 at 08:22 AM

I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree as I most definetly do not feel like a winner....

JimmyMack commented on Thursday, Jan 10, 2013 at 15:13 PM

You are right HMJC. But, life's a bitch then you die.

timeontarget commented on Thursday, Jan 10, 2013 at 16:06 PM

HMJC I also don't think that we won anything.

These indeed are dark days.

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