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Executive Order/ Is Martial Law Next?
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President Obama issued a broad reaching executive order this past Friday quietly as the country prepared to celebrate the holiday.

This order is indeed scary as hell because I'm afraid that it is a signal that we might be in eminent danger of terrific civil unrest.

I thought this might happen in the near future but I now think it is here and now.

Sebekm and others who are far better able to check out these things and attempt to clarify them please read the order and tell me just what is taking place.

Thank you one and all.

Also please let's keep this discussion friendly as we are all in this together regardless of how we feel toward each other.


Latest Activity: Mar 19, 2012 at 5:32 AM


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timeontarget commented on Monday, Mar 19, 2012 at 08:37 AM

The friend who told me of this yesterday has just informed me that this order is simply a continuation of something that has been in place for some time.

If so then I am still interested in a better understanding of the purpose as well as the intent.

I'm not trying to alarm anyone but I'm simply seeking to better understand.

I used to stay fairly well informed from reading the Newspapers but it seems that they don't get the job done anymore.

LibertyDrum commented on Monday, Mar 19, 2012 at 08:44 AM

It is indeed scary, but not all that surprising. This is the one step towards a more “command and control society”

(http://www.economypedia.com/wiki/inde...).

This, as the official order from the WH website explains that to meet “national defense requirements” it has control over a large scope of resources both pre and post production.

(http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-o...)

Now, the term “national defense requirement” might seem ambiguous, and that’s because it’s meant to be. With a clear and defined rule, power is limited within its scope. But with a more “subjective” term, it can be applied to anything they want; essentially giving them an “out.”

Now, if you notice (on the WH website), Section 201. Bow leg 1-6 summarizes just about every resource you can think of now under Gov’t control. At any time they could say we need more steel to produce a specific piece of military equipment which meets our “national defense requirements,” there by removing that resource from the most productive means of our economy into the least. This is not something new in America but, sadly, it’s almost forgotten. Some here (the older generation) might remember their parents telling them about such policies we had during the Second World War The Gov’t rationed food and metal (amongst other things) to give for the “war effort.” All the while, US citizens had to do with much less and prices SOARED because of the scarcity. You might remember the poster “Do with LESS, so they’ll have enough.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/primaryh...

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/ww...

You think prices are high now, wait till we have rationing. And since our resources will go to the “War on Terror” (another ambiguous term) there is no clear and defined “end game.” They simply have the power to keep taking and spending as long as we’re told there is a threat. Which, as any logical person can discern, means forever (or until we end up like Greece).

For the past few months, I’ve been talking about this. The President is able to pass this sweeping order without any check. This is the danger of Executive Orders. It’s much like a King or Dictator. They’re able to pass sweeping laws with any democratic process, by passing Congress completely (which, by the way, he has publicly said he wishes to do).

All this is targeted at the upcoming war in Iran. They understand with trillions of dollars in debt, and no real resources going to the State voluntarily, they must TAKE IT. That is the only way they can continue to wage war under our current economic situation. We should be outraged!

One last note, the recent herd of GOP candidates would do EXACTLY same thing, don’t think any different. I am speaking specifically of Romney and Santorum.

LibertyDrum commented on Monday, Mar 19, 2012 at 08:53 AM

* "They’re able to pass sweeping laws WITHOUT any democratic process"

sebekm commented on Monday, Mar 19, 2012 at 10:58 AM

The supposedly "new" executive order is an update of an 18 year-old order which apparently stems back to 1939. It appears to me to be - in this most complicated of worlds - an attempt at preparedness in the event of "national emergencies." Of course, one can read into it (and the motivation behind it) whatever one wants. I am not alarmed.

Here's an explanation that seems to cover all the bases as far as the historical background and intent of the executive order:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2...

I don't agree with the last three sentences of the article, but IMHO the author's opinions expressed there do not invalidate what he otherwise reports.

The bottom line: the explanation and the need for an updated executive order sound reasonable to me.

sebekm commented on Monday, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:06 AM

Here's a more extensive (and less inflammatory) explanation:

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/no-i...

LibertyDrum commented on Monday, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:23 PM

I don't quite understand how it's not a "power grab." The EO specifically states such a power.

PART II - PRIORITIES AND ALLOCATIONS

Sec. 201. Priorities and Allocations Authorities. (a) The authority of the President conferred by section 101 of the Act, 50 U.S.C. App. 2071, to require acceptance and priority performance of contracts or orders (other than contracts of employment) to promote the national defense over performance of any other contracts or orders, and to allocate materials, services, and facilities as deemed necessary or appropriate to promote the national defense, is delegated to the following agency heads:

(1) the Secretary of Agriculture with respect to food resources, food resource facilities, livestock resources, veterinary resources, plant health resources, and the domestic distribution of farm equipment and commercial fertilizer;

(2) the Secretary of Energy with respect to all forms of energy;

(3) the Secretary of Health and Human Services with respect to health resources;

(4) the Secretary of Transportation with respect to all forms of civil transportation;

(5) the Secretary of Defense with respect to water resources; and

(6) the Secretary of Commerce with respect to all other materials, services, and facilities, including construction materials.

----------------------------

"promote the national defense OVER performance of ANY OTHER contracts or orders"

"and to ALLOCATE materials, services, and facilities as deemed necessary or appropriate to promote the national defense"

"the Secretary of Agriculture with respect to food resources...."

"the Secretary of Transportation with respect to all forms of civil transportation;

""the Secretary of Transportation with respect to all forms of civil transportation;"

So, if I was to take this literally, and if the resources I sell in my business were needed "to promote the national defense," would the Federal Government have right over them? Would MY (and my customers) needs be supercided? If we take this EO at it's stated word, I can't see how one can make the arugment against it.

Now, as you said Seb, this is NOT new. That is true. As I said earlier, FDR did this and it raised the prices of everything that was deemed neccessary for the "war effort." This is not something good for the economy and is something we should be concerned with.

sebekm commented on Monday, Mar 19, 2012 at 13:00 PM

"I don't quite understand how it's not a "power grab.""

Every presidential administration has as a standard task the review of all executive orders that are in place when they come into power. This review is basically two-fold:

*To determine which executive orders they wish to continue.

*Of those - to determine which executive orders need to be modified and how.

I see this action as nothing more than updating an executive order that was already in place that they have decided they wish to continue.

From your comments, it appears that the final paragraph of my last cite above touches on one of your main concerns:

"There are, perhaps, some issues worth discussing that this EO raises. The fact that the President of the United States is still exercising authority granted during the Korean War and the height of the Cold War is yet another reflection of how power, once assumed by the Imperial Presidency, is never surrendered. The fact that an Executive Order like this was released on a Friday afternoon and has been largely ignored by the traditional media is an indication of just how easy it is for politicians to manipulate the news cycle. And the idea that the government has authority like that described in this document, even only in theory, and that most Americans aren’t even aware of it, is a reflection of just how little we know about the things that are done in our name. Those are all legitimate issues, but they go far deeper than this one relatively innocuous Executive Order."

See especially the last two sentences of this quote. All the Obama administration has done is update something already in place which continues contingencies (or - if you prefer - "power grabs) which have been in place for the past 73 years. If you have problems with the "legitimate issues," don't blame this order - or the Obama administration for updating it.

IMHO - getting cranked up about the executive order itself is just needless excitation.

LibertyDrum commented on Monday, Mar 19, 2012 at 14:45 PM

I see your point, and agree. These type of things have been going along for quite sometime. I do, however, feel it needs to be brought out publicly. The opposing party will down-play it, the other will do the opposite. Either way, I think it's very important to let everyone know and hope for some change.

A society where all goods and services are proper of the State is not something that will help us. In fact, there are many countries that tried this and failed. We need not head down the same path.

timeontarget commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 06:34 AM

"They are able to pass sweeping laws without any democratic process"

That is the frightening part.

And we the people are content with it without even discussing it or making any attempt to dig into the meat of it.

Our military industrial complex has used up all of the excess capacity within our treasury and we have borrowed ourselves deeply into debt which future generations will have to repay.

This is a capitalistic society and only the entrepreneurs actually create revenue which is the grease which keeps this economic engine running.

None of you military (active or retired) contribute anything toward the financing of the operation of this nation.

Neither do any government employees active or retired.

The so called taxes which you pay are paid with dollars extracted from those engaged in commerce.

While you all are enjoying your security government is slowly choking the life out of the economic engine which supports this nation.

LibertyDrum commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 07:30 AM

"Our military industrial complex has used up all of the excess capacity within our treasury and we have borrowed ourselves deeply into debt which future generations will have to repay."

This is why I question the conservative position on a war with Iran. In 2010 we spoke of a country being bankrupt by the Democrats. Now, only two years later they somehow think we've got the money to spend on yet another war. I don't see what has changed. I wish someone would please explain that to me.

On you last points Time, you are correct. Gov't spending (whether civilian employees, military, public works, foreign aid, welfare, etc) must first come from a productive means in the economy. A person or business must earn the money first before Gov't is able to confiscate it. Then turn around and spend it one other means. This is the basic economic lesson we all need to remember when we ask our Gov't to "fix" things.

However, I feel there might be a bit of "backlash" as you how you phrased those last parts.

HMJC commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 09:54 AM

TOT, always hating on the military complex... I know you watch the news, read the paper, and see the rest of the world through the "looking glass" The revolts against goverments, poverty, human rights abuses far too nurmerous to list. All products of societies that do not have a working military complex that is actally committed to thier country. Less than 1% serve in our Armed Forces. I dare say that of all of our economic woes is largely in part to paying the pittance of a salary that most receive is not the root of all of our economic woes. Yes, the military is not a cheap date, but the billions of dollars sqaundered on every special interest program is just as wastful and merits just as much scrutitny. Our society has it challanges, but one thing will always ring true. It is still the best in the world, and at least in our country there are mechinisms for change.

sebekm commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Countries have had standing armies (in one way or another) down through the ages because peeople and their governments decided they were NECESSARY. Period. They contribute to "the financing and operation" of the nations they serve through their blood, sweat, tears, and personal sacrifice for the (oftentimes) thankless populations they serve.

Remember TOT - soldiers die defending YOUR country SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

Soldiers sacrifice THEIR "security" to ensure YOURS.

And they do it DESPITE the selfish, ungrateful likes of you.

sebekm commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 12:34 PM

...people and their governments, that is...

sebekm commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 13:09 PM

"None of you military (active or retired) contribute anything toward the financing of the operation of this nation.

Neither do any government employees active or retired."

And what do you think us "military (active or retired)" or "government employees active or retired" DO with the compensation we receive - sit around counting our gold all day?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - we pump it back into YOUR economy buying houses, cars, hard and soft goods, which in the long run all goes to enhancing your personal financial stability.

Soldier's don't decide who they fight, or when they fight, or where they fight. They're not even supposed to ask WHY they fight. They are totally at the command and the discretion of the civilian leadership you elect.

The military and civilian servants of this country contribute the best, most productive years of their lives (and sometimes their actual lives) to being at the beck and call of the civilian leaderhip of this country. In exchange, THE PEOPLE decide what they receive in the form of compensation and retirement benefits.

If you don't like it, take it up with your civilian leadership.

LibertyDrum commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 13:57 PM

This is why I said it would receive a backlash. But Seb, the key point of what TOT said is correct.

The Gov't and military do not create anything. They do not provide a service that is effected by profit and loss. In order to pay for a program or another public-sector salary, the money must be REMOVED from other sections of the economy. This is just the fact. In order to pay them, someone else has to do with less.

HMJC commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 14:07 PM

The reality of never having served in the military will always breed contempt. The 100% bottomline fact is and always will be, if you didn't serve you will truly never fully understand. The irony is I harbor no ill will for the contempt. I am proud of my service, no matter who says what, you can never take that away. Thanks to all who have served and still serve.

HMJC commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 14:16 PM

LD/TOT, have you noticed that when there is fighting to be done, there are no questions....The typical kneejerk response to question why the military might is still needed when the dust settles always seems to be the fallguy to blame for all of our economic woes. As I previously stated, less the 1% serves in our Armed Forces, 1%!!!! Let's say for example how many programs support illegal aliens? I have a feeling it may be more than 1%...That is just one example of pork laden programs that really do take care of Americans. Did I mention that the DOD is actively cutting 409 billion from its current budget? What are all of the other programs doing to do thier part?

HMJC commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 14:20 PM

One last point about our civialin leaders, A Soldier who serves over 20 years receives half of thier active compensation. A Senator that serves one 4 year term receives full benifits for the rest of thier life...something is a little out of wack here...

LibertyDrum commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 14:35 PM

HMJC, I think you missed the point. We are not specifically talking about US Soldiers (the 1%) or even public sector employees. Rather it's the whole system that needs to be discussed cordially.

I have served in both the military and as a civil servant. Because of that, I understand both sides. TOT and I don’t blame the employees. They simply take the best job that is available to them (remember we spoke about this in “cheap” labor countries). This is the best choice THEY have found for themselves.

That being said, it’s impossible to notice that we as a nation spend a HUGE amount of money on our military. It’s not just about “the fighting to be done,” but other aspects as well. There’s a difference between military spending and defense spending.

We as a nation spend more money on defense that the next four largest countries COMBINED! This includes China, U.K, France, and Russia. How can we complain about the economy and yet not talk about one of the LARGEST reasons we’re at debt?

The current warfare state we have is NOT something Americans should be in favor of. War is a gross and detested thing. It bankrupts nations, and chokes society. It kills innocent people and ruins lives. This is NOT something people should be defending.
We have LONG moved past a strong defense and moved onto a stronger offense. With over 800 military bases, and in 18 different countries, we are spending entirely to thin.

Please, someone, explain how this is sustainable?!

LibertyDrum commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 14:36 PM

*it’s impossible NOT to notice

LibertyDrum commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 14:48 PM

"we pump it back into YOUR economy buying houses, cars, hard and soft goods, which in the long run all goes to enhancing your personal financial stability."

Seb,let me ask. Where does the money come from to purchase these products you stated?

timeontarget commented on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2012 at 19:29 PM

That money comes from us.

At least originally it comes from all sources other than public sector.

I'll join ya'll in the morning.

Right now I've got to grab a bite and catch some sleep,

timeontarget commented on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2012 at 06:51 AM

This is about the reaction I was prepared for.

You are right in that I probably see it differently because I never served.

I do feel different about draft era and the new all volunteer army.

I believe the all volunteer to be simply mercenaries.

They are either there for the financial security or they are fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

We are not defending our Liberty in The United States on this continent within our border by invading sovereign nations all over the world.

In recent memory we have invaded Panama, Granada, Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan and Libya and now there is talk of Iran.

Korea and Vietnam were mistakes as well and accomplished little more than bringing home a bunch of disabled men who contribute greatly to the drug abuse culture in this country.

I have never seen proof that those countries posed imminent threat to my Liberty here in this country.

We need and always will need a standing Army to defend this land.

I just simply wish that we would put this country back to work in the manufacture of goods which our citizens purchase every day.

In the past two or three decades about the only thing the good ole USA has exported is war. At least that seems to be the one thing that we export in abundance.

The result has been that most of the world know sees us as the "bully on the block" and secretly they have grown to hate us as a people.

And for the most part these things have happened simply because of executive orders by various different Presidents with very little democratic process being involved.

That is what this discussion is supposed to be about.

timeontarget commented on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00 AM

Should read

most of the world now sees us as the bully on the block

Not know sees us

sorry about that

LibertyDrum commented on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:03 AM

Listen, it seems to me that personnel feelings have been affected by such statements. I understand. It's no one person’s fault. The world works on people seeking their own self interests (if I could quote the late Milton Friedman).

The Hinesville community relies heavily upon Gov't paychecks, both military and civilian. These are (WERE; due to budget cuts) some of the most stable jobs and sometimes best paying. We look at our options and skills and make the best career choice available to us.

That being said, we must also understand WHERE this money comes from. As TOT has stated, if comes from the private economy. A person or company must be successful to turn a profit. By making a profit, the Federal Gov't is able to move in and confiscate these profits and spend on the above people (amongst other things).

Therefore, it cannot be seen as a net gain for the U.S economy. Someone must do with less, so others can do with more. The Federal Gov’t does not buy and sell products to the customer like a private company does. It’s not affected by the profit-and-loss system. It can only consume as long as others are successful. That's "just the facts," as Joe Friday would say.

(One a side note, Joe Friday never actually uttered those exact words.)

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/drag...

LibertyDrum commented on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:03 AM

Listen, it seems to me that personnel feelings have been affected by such statements. I understand. It's no one person’s fault. The world works on people seeking their own self interests (if I could quote the late Milton Friedman).

The Hinesville community relies heavily upon Gov't paychecks, both military and civilian. These are (WERE; due to budget cuts) some of the most stable jobs and sometimes best paying. We look at our options and skills and make the best career choice available to us.

That being said, we must also understand WHERE this money comes from. As TOT has stated, if comes from the private economy. A person or company must be successful to turn a profit. By making a profit, the Federal Gov't is able to move in and confiscate these profits and spend on the above people (amongst other things).

Therefore, it cannot be seen as a net gain for the U.S economy. Someone must do with less, so others can do with more. The Federal Gov’t does not buy and sell products to the customer like a private company does. It’s not affected by the profit-and-loss system. It can only consume as long as others are successful. That's "just the facts," as Joe Friday would say.

(One side note, Joe Friday never actually uttered those exact words.)

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/drag...

timeontarget commented on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2012 at 08:42 AM

LibertyDrum, thank you.

You actually make my point better than I could.

It is all about money and once upon a time as a very young adult I made a conscious choice to seek my fortune as an entrepreneur.

I have enjoyed some success (Modest) and endured some failure.

I learned from both.

I have seen government at all levels become an ever increasing burden to free enterprise.

Those in public sector jobs for the most part don't seem to understand.

China now manufactures just about every single product found in wally world.

Mom and Pop businesses have virtually disappeared from the scene entirely.

The best of the good times are gone.

Our congress is in gridlock and therefore disfunctional.

We must make some profound changes in our attitudes about our government and taxes and the business community.

Otherwise our standard of living will continue its economic slide down that slippery slope.

We cannot all live on a government paycheck because when that happens the income will cease to exist to support the treasury.

HMJC commented on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2012 at 09:46 AM

TOT/LD, I agree wholeheartedly about the Mom and Pop buisnessess. I agree about the state of our current political climate. I do not agree with the contention that the military complex is the reason fo the current state. That was the point I was trying to allude to, our economic woes are more in part to outsourcing and "cheaper" goods from outside of our country. The mercenary statement or believing in our mission as Soldiers is borderline pathetic. You have never had your freedom infringed upon because of those who served, and those who still serve. Its not a buisness venture, its a way of life, a hard life at that. I dont want your thanks or acknowledgement, Thats not why we did it. I just want you to quit blaming the military as that is I say again, not the real issue. Just the easiest to blame.

LibertyDrum commented on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2012 at 12:06 PM

It's all conducive. As I said, if you wish to discuss our current economy and debt issues, you have to talk about the massive amounts of taxed money going to defense spending (amongst other things). Just as you need to discuss both the welfare and entitlement spending. It's all part of our economy and money needs to be removed from private business to fund it all. It must all be up for debate. Otherwise we're not being serious about the problem.

JimmyMack commented on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2012 at 16:40 PM

Not sure where this fits in the discussion but after getting my SS check from the guvment (turned 62 last May), I learned via my tax return that I must pay taxes on what funds I receive as my SS check is counted as gross income. How bout that?

Double taxation...even WITH representation!

timeontarget commented on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2012 at 17:57 PM

Jm, Thank You

Too late in the day to dwell on this for me.

I'll comment tomorrow.

This is what we need to do on this medium.

In my opinion and I know that I'm old and really don't understand how, all of this works.

LibertyDrum commented on Thursday, Mar 22, 2012 at 08:17 AM

Sadly, this happens much more Jim. Capital gains for example. I receive a percentage off my investments, it's takes at 35%, than when I purchase something with that investment cash, it's taxed again.

timeontarget commented on Thursday, Mar 22, 2012 at 08:18 AM

JM, I've now had a good night's sleep and I've returned from my early morning chores.

Well you keep on and you too will be an "old man".

Regarding your statement right above concerning your social security check being counted as gross income and your having to pay taxes on it along with your retirement income.

Is it double taxation or are you double dipping???????????

I say that in jest.

There was a time long ago when people in your situation were called double dippers.

And I remember a few who were called triple dippers if they had military retirement as well as civil service and social security.

It all depends upon one's perspective.

You and sebekm add greatly to the worth of this blog site as well as a number of other folks.

We each and every one have our own different perspective on all issues.

HMJC commented on Thursday, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:46 AM

TOT,
I do respect that we are all afforded the right to have our own point of view. By my own admission, if you have not served you do not have the individual perspective to draw from. it is not fair for me to lambast you in regards to this as you really do not know. All I knew for 22 years was being a Soldier, I am proud of that and always will be.

timeontarget commented on Friday, Mar 23, 2012 at 06:02 AM

My comments about our military and public sector employees derailed my original intent in posting this blog.

My primary purpose was to call attention to the fact that executive orders with little or no democratic process is a real threat to our Liberty.


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